Where does Sam fit in???

[vyperdd]

As a follow up to my last post about my issues about Sam getting the short end of the stick when it comes to interacting and connecting with characters other than Dean, I came across something that sums up my feelings perfectly, both in regards to Sam being always on the outside and to what I see as an unwillingness, if not outright, refusal of SOME -- (not all, but definitely more than a few) Dean/Jensen fans to understand why us Sam fans are upset about how the writers have treated (and in our eyes-- ignored) Sam over the years.

http://www.tvovermind.com/supernatural/supernatural-review-season-8-episode-11-larp-and-the-real-girl and in the comments was this exchange. I didn't comment on the original post but I do have some thoughts of my own to include here.

Amy:
I think what JAne is sort of responding to is the writer saying how Dean fits into the Larping world. Dean also fits into the prison life, he fits in the hunting world.
Sam howwever doesn’t fit in anywhere. He doesn’t fit in prison, normal life, the hunting world, the larping world.Where does Sam fit? I’d like for show to show me where exactly Sam fits.

Me: I agree with this so much. I'd also add that Dean fitted very well into the film industry setting in "HollyWood Babylon" to the point that he was practically working as a PA and completely accepted by cast members and other crew.

Sam:
Sam doesn’t need to fit in everywhere Dean does. But if Dean fits into every situation the writers dream up then where does that leave Sam? Why can’t Sam fit somewhere that Dean doesn’t? Why can’t Sam have a bonding session with a guest or recurring charector? Why is it ALWAYS Dean who gets these interactions?

Me: Again, I totally agree. Most of the interaction Sam does with other characters is interviewing them as victims or interrogating them as suspects. Not exactly situations where Sam can open up and discuss his feelings/thoughts and emotions.

Clarissa (the writer of the review):
I’m not sure if by “writer” you mean me, the writer of this review, or the writer of the episode, but if you did mean me I don’t see why you would say that Sam doesn’t fit in anywhere. I thought that it’s been made clear over the years that Sam has embraced hunting as a way of life and is a very good hunter. Like Dean, I think he still clings to the idea of a normal life, but his decision not to reunite with Amelia was clearly him embracing hunting. As for prison, why is it a bad thing that Sam doesn’t fit in in prison? Why must Sam fit in everywhere that Dean does? Why can’t the boys be good at different things? That way, they tend to compliment one another instead of being identical.

Me: We aren't saying that Sam has to fit in everywhere Dean does and I agree that the boys should be good at different things/situations. The problem for me and other Sam fans is that we are only seeing situations where Dean fits in. I can't recall a single time where the focus has been on Sam fitting in somewhere, getting the type of pleasure by immersing himself totally like Dean has on numerous occassions. If someone can point 1 out , then please do. I still even struggle to say what sort of music Sam likes, what his favourite movies are, how he likes to hang out and relax.

Clarissa:
And Sam obviously fits into the LARPing world. He might not have embraced his inner-nerd as gleefully as Dean did, but it was *his* suggestion that they join in at the end.

Me: This I disagree with. It was Dean showing all the enthusiasm of the LARP'ing world, suggesting battle tactics to Charlie, saying that the Moondoor website looked awesome. Sam only joined in right at the end, I think, because he saw how much Dean had enjoyed himself. Had something happened and Sam was there by himself, I think he would have left as soon as the case was solved and not gotten into costume and taken part in the final battle.

Clarissa:
I don’t know why you would insist that Sam doesn’t fit in anywhere. By Dean’s own admission, Sam has generally connected a lot more to their victims of the week and finds it a lot easier to talk to victims. He’s very sympathetic when it comes to that type of work. If you feel that Sam doesn’t fit in anywhere that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but I don’t think the show supports that theory.

And Sam has connected very well to a lot of guest stars. He bonded very nicely with Jodi when Dean was stuck in the past, for example.

Me: Wow, 1 character in 1 episode out of about 160. I can name a couple of others, Mr Wyatt in After School Special, Young John in Song Remains The Same, but that is still far less than all the people Dean has confided in and interacted 1 on 1 with over the seasons.

Amy:
Apparently the writers dont agree with Dean since Dean is the one who bonds with all recurring charectors as well as the victims while Sam is ‘researching’. Jody was two years ago in showtime and there is no evidence to suggest she will be returning anytime soon.

Me: Agree again.


Clarissa:
Alright, I’m bowing out of this Sam vs. Dean debate since it’s clearly never-ending and neither side is prepared to entertain the possibility that the other side might have a point. I’m sorry you feel that Sam is a victim of the writers’ choices or Dean’s “superiority” or whatever, but I’ve never seen Sam as a victim of anything other than some terrible circumstances that have befallen both him and his brother.

Roxi:
As for Dean bonding with more guest stars well, Sam is the only one SPN feels deserving of real romances, so it’s a tradeoff. I guess Dean isn’t supposed to have anything of his own. Sam should have all the love stories, all the best story arcs, AND bond with all the guest stars. And Dean should be? Off the show I guess, since SPN doesn’t think his character matters except to look after/be resented by Sam, and be a foil, for Cas.

Me: We don't think Sam should have everything. Neither brother should. All we are asking for is that both brothers get an EQUAL share of the storyline and interactions with other characters. We have seen plenty of examples of Dean fitting in. It is way, way past time to see Sam have that same sort of time in the spotlight.



Comments

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey hun,

You need to fix the coding...;)

I want to read it but it's a bit difficult like this...

xox

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sorry about that! I posted when I was very rushed and running late. Hope everything looks a lot better now.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Ok....I'm back. There's text under the cut that's readable.

The last thing I want to do is weigh in on a Sam v Dean debate. I think Clarrisa made a good point about that it's never ending. /o\

I have to be honest though, as a Sam girl, I've never really felt short changed on what they've given Sam. I mean, yeah, he's appeared less this season due to (probably) more family commitments but he's been a main part of the story line. I can't say I've liked the story line (I think the idea was solid but the execution lacked a lot), but in terms of exploring a solid theme (real world v dream world) he was right in the thick of it.

Sam has had some pretty amazing story lines over the years. And I think Jared has been given a great chance to play different aspects of his character (soulless Sam, addicted Sam, vengeful and then redemption!Sam, hallucinating Sam, and now a kind of lost!Sam). Jensen hasn't really had much of that. We've seen grieving Dean, PTSD Dean, pissed Dean (but that's more a character trait) AND playful, geeky Dean. These have been aspects of his character rather than complete changes like Sam has had.

I suppose my thinking is that it's pretty even. I've always thought that. I know Sam has less Samcentric episodes, but when we do get them they are pretty full on. I think it's balanced out by how much of the story lines revolve around Sam.

As for the last ep. I dunno. I loved it. I can see that some fans are disappointed that Sam didn't get a chance to dress up. For me, I was happy just to see the brothers connect again. I liked the way Jared played a sombre Sam - thoughtful about what's just happened but trying to move on. Sure, they could have given him more scenes with Charlie maybe but I think I rather liked the Charlie and Dean dynamic and having Sam on the outside of that. It spoke volumes of where Sam is at at the moment. On the outside. It's pretty damn sad and I think that that was carried over from that very final scene.

He went from not wanting to be fully involved (one foot in) to becoming fully involved (both feet in). I think it was a nice progression for him. I celebrated Dean's enthusiasm and loved that he was watching out for Sam again. And I know Dean!gals don't like that Dean's story always revolves around Sam but, to me, both of their stories revolve around each other. Completely. And that's the way I like it.

Wow...I ranted on a bit. I am distracting myself by doing stuff I SHOULD be doing. ;)
xx

ETA: Oooh, meant to say about Sam not fitting in. It might be the geeky SPN obsessed girl in me but I think a big part of Sam's story is about him not exactly fitting in. The only place I think I've seen him 100% comfortable is at Stanford. He doesn't reaally fit into the hunting world (but he has to), he can't a "normal" life because - he just can't (and even then he didn't look comfortable), he might fit into the LARPing world when he's not just made the break from his (so called ) love, but even then I don't see Sam as a LARPer. I think part of Sam's overall journey is to find the place he fits. To me it's by Dean's side. That's not exactly healthy but it's the truth. It's the same for Dean also. Dean was happy in the episode because he had Sam by his side. *head canon* xx

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

If LARP was a 1 off and the first ep where Sam didn't get to dress-up or for as much of the ep as Dean, it probably only would have made me momentarily annoyed and I would have moved on and not even thought about commenting on it. But what got me really upset and frustrated is that it's the latest in a list or eps where Dean has been the only one to dress-up and have fun.

I guess this is more of a case of wanting to drool over Jared in some really great outfits out of the norm of what Sam usually wears, rather than purely about Sam. Call me shallow if you will but 1 reason I watch is for the eye-candy! It probably also didn't help that I was pretty hyped for this ep, esp after seeing the preview of Sam in costume and really getting my hopes up that I'd finally get to see what I'd been waiting years for. So I was just setting myself up for a nasty crash and burn when my expectations weren't met.

But even Sam himself admitted in Skin (I think) that he didn't really fit in at Stanford. I find it so sad that there really is no place that Sam will ever really fit in and be happy and content.

From what you've written I get the feeling that you are saying that Sam not fitting in is part of his characterisation and that, therefor, the writers aren't doing him any diservice by not writing scenarios where he can let loose and have fun like we've seen Dean do countless times. If I'm wrong with my assumptions, then feel free to correct me.

But if this is true, then it only makes me more frustrated that it means that things are unlikely to change and that I can give up hope of ever seeing Sam enjoying himself like Dean does.

[ash48.livejournal.com]

Hey,

Well, in terms of eye candy we did get to see him shirtless at least this season!

Hmmm....Sam having fun. That really is a tricky one. I do hold out hope that we will get to see him have some (real) fun. I think the last time Sam really had fun was when he was playing pranks on Dean - way back in S1.

I actually do think that Sam finding somewhere to fit in IS part of his character arc. I think that's why when he was blood drinking it felt so right to him (unfortunately). He felt powerful and he had purpose. Of course all that was shattered when he learned he was being played. He wasn't having fun of course, be I think he felt like he was fitting in somewhere.

I think the idea of Sam fitting in (or not) is an interesting one and worthy of some meta (I'd love to have the time for that!). I almost feel like the penny has dropped in regards to a major part of his characterization. Sam is constantly seeking a place to fit in - we seldom see him really happy (which is incredibly sad). In most cases he just gets on and is sometimes content but there doesn't seem to be the ONE thing that makes him happy - like pie, or the impala, or burgers.

(hee... we should "battle" this out in person sometime. ;) I had great fun chatting through all the issues with redteekal recently. I think it's easier to discuss the deeper issues in person).

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

Yes, I will always love any morsel of ShirtlessSam that we are blessed with. I was amazed and very, very happy at how long the scene was in 603. Had only seen pics of the actual workout, so thought that was all there would be. Loved, loved, loved it when the shirt stayed off after he finished working out, all the way through the convo with the hooker and the phone call with Dean. And then we got still more long, loving looks from the camera before it cut to an add. Definitely spoiled that day.

I think you're right about when we last saw Sam really happy and care-free.

Count me in on any future "battles". There is nothing better than watching my fav show with other people who truly understand our passion for the boys.

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

(I didn't read the link because I try to limit my exposure to fandom-at-large off of my happy little f-list, but what you have reproduced here is an interesting conversation, so thank you for posting!)

I'm not sure Sam will ever fit in well with groups? I just don't think he likes those dynamics as much. It doesn't mean he's shown as being joyless. Off the top of my head, Sam likes dogs, he likes football (Heartache), he likes Harry Potter (D&D Tattoo). I don't think he would enjoy throwing himself into those things wholeheartedly in the way Dean likes slipping into different systems and personas. I think that's character-consistent for both of them. And I like that about Sam? That he's more reserved and not so good at seizing fun where he can. It's a part of why he struggles with the life in a way that Dean doesn't, because those small opportunities to recharge aren't available to him.

Same with the guest characters, though I do think he's connected nicely with more than just Jodi. I think it's a part of his characterization that he prefers to be Library Guy and let Dean do the charming and fast-talking. It's a part of how they compliment each other, that Dean likes socializing even though Sam's the one that is really interested in joining society.

I wouldn't want to lose that part of the character. I don't think it's bad writing, I think it's subtle writing, and I find it more appealing for that. I get that it's tough to watch, because it's so easy to sympathize with Sam's struggling, but to me that's a mark of good writing, that I can understand what he's thinking even if he's not taking up a lot of space in the foreground.

(I am, otoh, extremely frustrated with how some, though far from most, Dean fans seem insistent on reading Sam, but of course that's an unfortunate given.)

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

Thanks for these thoughts. They make a lot of sense. I've just got to come to an acceptance that the writers aren't likely to start writing Sam throwing himself into things like Dean does. It still makes me sad but I am slowly coming to terms with it.

I've even watched LARP a couple of times since I posted my initial thoughts and while it won't ever be high on my favourite lists, I am enjoying it a little bit more each time. Wacthing it with your and Ash's comments in mind has certainly helped ease the negative feelings I first had.

[sammichgirl]

I think it's a huge part of Sam's character that he has never fit in anywhere, really, and is constantly searching. He's the black sheep of the family. The little brother needing care and feeding. The quiet, reflective, pensive one...who has a heart of gold and is often misunderstood or not given a moment in the sun, standing in his brother's shadow.

Occasionally we get a glimpse of the real Sam we know and love peeking through Dean's loud, obnoxious, charming, over-bearing big brother persona that hides his own insecurities and guilt. But not nearly enough. Sam has that too, the writers seem to gloss over.

I've loved Sam's storylines, and all the angles Jared has been able to play Sam from. I just never feel like the show gives him a break - like, to be the center of an episode. Even when it's about Sam, it seems to be overcast by Dean's reaction to it, etc.

The argument of Dean vs Sam on who gets more, better, etc. will definitely be one that is never ending. I'm a Samgirl, so I like to see more of my guy.

I hope Sam can find a way to fit in in the world. I'd like to see that for him. Honestly, I personally feel it's right next to Dean, wherever they are together. Maybe Sam just needs to accept it somehow. Maybe he has now, and we'll see that start to play out.

If the writers would just give in to the subtext already, us fangirls know EXACTLY how it should go. :)

[vyperdd.livejournal.com]

Occasionally we get a glimpse of the real Sam we know and love peeking through Dean's loud, obnoxious, charming, over-bearing big brother persona that hides his own insecurities and guilt.

OMG! This is one of the best desciptions of Sam & Dean that I have ever read and does so much to support all the comments I've been reading about Sam not fitting in being totally in character for him.

It just seems that Dean is always the focus of the type of eps like FrontierLand and LARP. I just wonder if the writers ever try and think of a way of giving Sam that sort of focus or if it's just become completely impossible now, given how they've written him over the last 8 seasons. I really don't want to think that all hope, esp for us Sam girls, is lost and that we are never going to get what so many of us want.

[bt-kady.livejournal.com]

Amen, sister! As one Samazon to another, I wholeheartedly agree that in instances like the ones mentioned, Dean is almost always the one who gets to bond with others, whereas Sam is usually on the fringes. I could add Dr. Cara to the list of people he bonded with, since we saw Dean accuse him of cock-blocking him, but that was, again, just one episode out of many.